Comments on: The TOEFL test in Taiwan http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/ A different look at Asia, China and Taiwan Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:42:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Scott Sommers http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79025 Scott Sommers Thu, 26 Jun 2008 05:31:00 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79025 I don't doubt the possibility of some sort of bias in construction. My problem with these comparisons is that they presume the student's being compared are equivilant. This is ridiculous. While ETS provides numbers on this property of their test, it is not a problem that professional test designers spend a lot of time on. The widespread discussion of this issue takes place almost exclusively in the mass media, particularly newspapers and TV. While this makes great newspaper reading, there's not very science in it. I don’t doubt the possibility of some sort of bias in construction. My problem with these comparisons is that they presume the student’s being compared are equivilant. This is ridiculous.

While ETS provides numbers on this property of their test, it is not a problem that professional test designers spend a lot of time on. The widespread discussion of this issue takes place almost exclusively in the mass media, particularly newspapers and TV. While this makes great newspaper reading, there’s not very science in it.

]]> By: fiLi http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79023 fiLi Thu, 26 Jun 2008 05:26:27 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79023 yijung - I agree. I find the speaking part to be the hardest too. Having 15 seconds to prepare and 45 seconds to respond is very difficult for a non-native speaker. I'm used to really take my time answering things and I've adopted methods of speaking relatively slow to allow myself to catch up with internal translation. It gets better with time. Talk to yourself? maybe to remember words better but not as ways of practicing speech. What I would suggest, though, and this has helped me a great deal is transfer your whole environment to English. You have a book in Chinese and English - read the English version. Using a computer ? choose an English interface. Send Emails and SMS to your friends in English. See movies with no dubbing and subtitles. Got a blog? I know it's hard - but write it in English. I've made this change 3-4 years ago and it has revolutionize my English. Hopefully, I'll be able to do that with Chinese some day soon. Israelis will always use Hebrew to communicate, unless abroad. But culturally, I would say that the Israeli stereotype is being very outgoing about practicing English and not caring about making mistakes. So, an Israeli might have a vocabulary of 5 words but he wouldn't mind using that vocabulary to try and express himself even if to others that would look a bit funny. Needless to say, the Taiwanese stereotype is exactly the opposite. yijung - I agree. I find the speaking part to be the hardest too. Having 15 seconds to prepare and 45 seconds to respond is very difficult for a non-native speaker. I’m used to really take my time answering things and I’ve adopted methods of speaking relatively slow to allow myself to catch up with internal translation. It gets better with time.

Talk to yourself? maybe to remember words better but not as ways of practicing speech. What I would suggest, though, and this has helped me a great deal is transfer your whole environment to English. You have a book in Chinese and English - read the English version. Using a computer ? choose an English interface. Send Emails and SMS to your friends in English. See movies with no dubbing and subtitles. Got a blog? I know it’s hard - but write it in English. I’ve made this change 3-4 years ago and it has revolutionize my English. Hopefully, I’ll be able to do that with Chinese some day soon.

Israelis will always use Hebrew to communicate, unless abroad. But culturally, I would say that the Israeli stereotype is being very outgoing about practicing English and not caring about making mistakes. So, an Israeli might have a vocabulary of 5 words but he wouldn’t mind using that vocabulary to try and express himself even if to others that would look a bit funny. Needless to say, the Taiwanese stereotype is exactly the opposite.

]]> By: fiLi http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79022 fiLi Thu, 26 Jun 2008 05:18:41 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-79022 Scott - yeah, I believe I understood your point. I disagree with your guess regarding Israeli behavior but would agree that some countries have different attitudes towards the different English tests which would create a difference in the national average. With that said, I do think the differences in average between northern Europe (/Israel) and Asia are very significant to suggest that there might be a cultural bias inherent in those tests or what they measure. I emphasize "might", this could happen for a number of other reasons. Scott - yeah, I believe I understood your point. I disagree with your guess regarding Israeli behavior but would agree that some countries have different attitudes towards the different English tests which would create a difference in the national average. With that said, I do think the differences in average between northern Europe (/Israel) and Asia are very significant to suggest that there might be a cultural bias inherent in those tests or what they measure. I emphasize “might”, this could happen for a number of other reasons.

]]> By: Scott Sommers http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78978 Scott Sommers Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:58:14 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78978 I can understand your feeling when looking at these numbers. My point is that the test is not administered in a way that makes ‘national’ comparisons meaningful. for example, my guess is that many serious students in Israel would take the IETSL aimed at attending school in Britain. That’s why I compared national patterns of scores on both the IESTL and the TOEFL. I can understand your feeling when looking at these numbers. My point is that the test is not administered in a way that makes ‘national’ comparisons meaningful. for example, my guess is that many serious students in Israel would take the IETSL aimed at attending school in Britain. That’s why I compared national patterns of scores on both the IESTL and the TOEFL.

]]> By: yijung http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78888 yijung Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:49:16 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78888 Wow, yuor test score is pretty high. I took it a month ago, but the score was pretty similiar to the average score of Chinese speaker. I just went to test center and took the test. It's a nighmare for me because the test's time was "too" long and I couldn't pay my full attention on the computer screen for 4 .5 hours. It's a torture for someone like me, who English is not good enough and didn't focus on preparing for the test. Now I change my strategy, I plan to focus more on the test preparing. I'm not sure whether TOEFL test is a good indicator to evaulate one's English ability or not, but it gives me a direction that which part is my weakest. I have browsed some China's test preparing websites. It seems that Chinese speakers who can score above 100, most of them get 22 in the speaking part, probably the speaking part is the most difficult for Chinese speaker. One English teacher suggests me to talk to ourself...I felt strange about it. Have you ever tried this way? How do you improve your English speaking? Will Israelis use English rather than Hebrew to communicate? Wow, yuor test score is pretty high. I took it a month ago, but the score was pretty similiar to the average score of Chinese speaker. I just went to test center and took the test. It’s a nighmare for me because the test’s time was “too” long and I couldn’t pay my full attention on the computer screen for 4 .5 hours. It’s a torture for someone like me, who English is not good enough and didn’t focus on preparing for the test. Now I change my strategy, I plan to focus more on the test preparing.

I’m not sure whether TOEFL test is a good indicator to evaulate one’s English ability or not, but it gives me a direction that which part is my weakest.

I have browsed some China’s test preparing websites. It seems that Chinese speakers who can score above 100, most of them get 22 in the speaking part, probably the speaking part is the most difficult for Chinese speaker.

One English teacher suggests me to talk to ourself…I felt strange about it. Have you ever tried this way? How do you improve your English speaking? Will Israelis use English rather than Hebrew to communicate?

]]> By: Helen http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78491 Helen Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:56:44 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78491 Well for me it is partly my father, who forced me to really learn English when I was 9 I think. Even if I was crying he made sure I had the words memorized and the pronunciation was good. I was also lucky to have amazing English teachers throughout my school years (of Estonian nationality). When I was a little older I started reading National Geographic ... and then later on, it was practice. I got a part-time job as a translator. I don't have an answer to this mystery :) ... I think it is a little bit of everything. I believe practice plays a big role (in your sisters case, watching TV in English counts as practice or in my case reading). But I also believe that there is a little bit of talent in it and quite a lot of hard work. But true some may have a better starting point than others (language similarities/differences). Well for me it is partly my father, who forced me to really learn English when I was 9 I think. Even if I was crying he made sure I had the words memorized and the pronunciation was good. I was also lucky to have amazing English teachers throughout my school years (of Estonian nationality). When I was a little older I started reading National Geographic … and then later on, it was practice. I got a part-time job as a translator.
I don’t have an answer to this mystery :) … I think it is a little bit of everything. I believe practice plays a big role (in your sisters case, watching TV in English counts as practice or in my case reading). But I also believe that there is a little bit of talent in it and quite a lot of hard work. But true some may have a better starting point than others (language similarities/differences).

]]> By: fiLi http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78478 fiLi Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:34:05 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78478 Helen - thanks for the long comment. I agree regarding test preparation. For those with good English skills all you need to do is practice the structure of the test once and you're done. Hebrew and English are worlds apart, which makes me question the assumption of language similarity. I thought maybe it's western attitude (my sister has great English just from watching American British TV and cinema all her childhood), but I doubt that would be true for Estonia or northern Europe. Is is the education system? something else? It's a real mystery. Helen - thanks for the long comment.

I agree regarding test preparation. For those with good English skills all you need to do is practice the structure of the test once and you’re done.

Hebrew and English are worlds apart, which makes me question the assumption of language similarity. I thought maybe it’s western attitude (my sister has great English just from watching American British TV and cinema all her childhood), but I doubt that would be true for Estonia or northern Europe. Is is the education system? something else?
It’s a real mystery.

]]> By: Helen http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78276 Helen Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:47:16 +0000 http://www.filination.com/blog/2008/06/22/the-toefl-test-in-taiwan/#comment-78276 Congratulations on the high score! I believe the trick on these tests is to 1st learn the structure of the test. Just even reviewing the question structure helps a lot. I took TOEFL last time summer of 2005 and prepared for it may-be 1.5 hours the evening before. When taking GMAT first time I also didn't have too much time to prepare and lost a lot of time during the test by trying to figure out what is expected of me. 2nd time I was smarter ... I did that work at home. If these tests really measure the knowledge of English (or Math in the case of GMAT)? I doubt also. I think they are about exhausting the test-taker :) For whom it is easier to learn English? I am a not a philology specialist. I have seen a lot of Estonians back at home really struggling learning English. I believe the easiness of learning the language has something to do with the similarities in the structures of language. The sentence structure in Estonian and English is different, so many people still make mistakes about the word order in the sentence because they translate in their head (from Estonian to English). Learning Chinese and learning about the structure of Chinese, I see why native Chinese speakers often speak English the way they do. I believe the amount of mistakes decreases when your language skills reach the level that you don't have to translate in your head anymore but think in the foreign language. PS. Why such threatening copyright remarks at the end ? :) Congratulations on the high score!
I believe the trick on these tests is to 1st learn the structure of the test. Just even reviewing the question structure helps a lot. I took TOEFL last time summer of 2005 and prepared for it may-be 1.5 hours the evening before.
When taking GMAT first time I also didn’t have too much time to prepare and lost a lot of time during the test by trying to figure out what is expected of me. 2nd time I was smarter … I did that work at home.
If these tests really measure the knowledge of English (or Math in the case of GMAT)? I doubt also. I think they are about exhausting the test-taker :)
For whom it is easier to learn English? I am a not a philology specialist. I have seen a lot of Estonians back at home really struggling learning English.
I believe the easiness of learning the language has something to do with the similarities in the structures of language. The sentence structure in Estonian and English is different, so many people still make mistakes about the word order in the sentence because they translate in their head (from Estonian to English). Learning Chinese and learning about the structure of Chinese, I see why native Chinese speakers often speak English the way they do. I believe the amount of mistakes decreases when your language skills reach the level that you don’t have to translate in your head anymore but think in the foreign language.

PS. Why such threatening copyright remarks at the end ? :)

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