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	<title>Comments on: Our moral nakedness : Taiwan, China, Israel, Palestine and the UN</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/</link>
	<description>Fili's world &#124; A different look at Asia, China and Taiwan</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 08:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: What Taiwan and Israel have in common &#124; Fili's world</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-80454</link>
		<dc:creator>What Taiwan and Israel have in common &#124; Fili's world</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-80454</guid>
		<description>[...] some valid points in there, one being the problematic situation Israel and Taiwan are facing and our moral nakedness. I personally believe there are striking similarities between the two very different nations, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] some valid points in there, one being the problematic situation Israel and Taiwan are facing and our moral nakedness. I personally believe there are striking similarities between the two very different nations, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fiLi</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-32113</link>
		<dc:creator>fiLi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-32113</guid>
		<description>Carry - yeah, I could sense I'm stepping into trouble.

I think you're open enough to know that Taiwanese see things completely different than what you suggest here. Taiwanese are intimidated by the current Chinese attitude, and although they have some shared history and culture, it has little to do with some of them feeling that they have a different nationality and identity. 

To make a very extreme example I hear sometimes - China can never make a claim to Singapore or other countries' China towns, and the ethnic identity and similarity is to be defined by the people, not by others. You can not tell a person what he is and what he feels, especially not using force. I believe it's more a question of how the Taiwanese see themselves being part of the Chinese than it is how the Chinese see the Taiwanese. You may consider them a lost child, but if they don't see it that way then they can no be forced into it. Taiwan has had since the end of 19th century to develop it's own identity, longer than many other countries like Israel have had. But, historical reasoning means nothing right now, it's how things are right now that matter.

Economical, political and war threats make this an even bigger problem. It sounds a bit like the reasoning of a husband beating his wife and claiming he loves her. The dialog should be more peaceful, with an open bi-directional interaction. Right now, there is no dialog. The Chinese will not accept anything less than what's happening with HK, and the Taiwanese - even the KMT - will not accept anything that will compromise their self governing and democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carry - yeah, I could sense I&#8217;m stepping into trouble.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re open enough to know that Taiwanese see things completely different than what you suggest here. Taiwanese are intimidated by the current Chinese attitude, and although they have some shared history and culture, it has little to do with some of them feeling that they have a different nationality and identity. </p>
<p>To make a very extreme example I hear sometimes - China can never make a claim to Singapore or other countries&#8217; China towns, and the ethnic identity and similarity is to be defined by the people, not by others. You can not tell a person what he is and what he feels, especially not using force. I believe it&#8217;s more a question of how the Taiwanese see themselves being part of the Chinese than it is how the Chinese see the Taiwanese. You may consider them a lost child, but if they don&#8217;t see it that way then they can no be forced into it. Taiwan has had since the end of 19th century to develop it&#8217;s own identity, longer than many other countries like Israel have had. But, historical reasoning means nothing right now, it&#8217;s how things are right now that matter.</p>
<p>Economical, political and war threats make this an even bigger problem. It sounds a bit like the reasoning of a husband beating his wife and claiming he loves her. The dialog should be more peaceful, with an open bi-directional interaction. Right now, there is no dialog. The Chinese will not accept anything less than what&#8217;s happening with HK, and the Taiwanese - even the KMT - will not accept anything that will compromise their self governing and democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: 天天北极-Carrie</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-26405</link>
		<dc:creator>天天北极-Carrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 09:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-26405</guid>
		<description>Fili,
Wow, I could hardly believe that you’ve written so much on this Israel-Taiwan and Taiwan-China issue!!! You’re always handling such sensitive issue with great care and seldom give out your own opinions. Hehe.

Anyway, I tend to view the Israel-Arab issue completely different from the China-Taiwan issue. Fundamentally, Taiwanese and Chinese are ethnically the same. China’s getting Taiwan back movement should be viewed as a sign of reunion, getting the blood back to the family, at least this is what the Chinese think. Annihilation is never what we’re intended. We love, we care our blood, but only basing on the fact they wouldn’t deny their identity and admit their origin. 

But I believe what the Arabic alliance do to Israel isn’t out of reunion or love. The hate from your neighbors wont change a bit even though Israelis claim themselves as Arabic(just as an example, I know it wont happen, hehe). 

On the contrary, the emotional stroke that Chinese get from Taiwan’s separating movement is far beyond foreigners could ever imagine. Maybe this comparison isn’t very appropriate to you, but trust me, most Chinese view Taiwan as the child of the country, just as HK and Macau, is the blood. Even an ordinary mother would be hurt badly and get raged when her kid trying to deny his origin, then you can imagine how a country would feel, especially when it bears the pride and hope of 1.33bn citizens. 

Chinese feeling towards Taiwanese is really complicated. You cannot just say Chinese “anti” Taiwanese or try to annihilate Taiwan once it declares separation. If anything, Chinese are emotionally connected to Taiwan and hoping more than anyone to handle this issue peacefully. But can it really work out in a way satisfying people from both sides, or rather, the world? No one knows. 

I’m an anti-war person, so a war between China and Taiwan is the last thing I wish to see. In fact I believe there won’t be such war in the future. When China could easily destroy a region by cutting the trading between two areas, why bothers to wage a war?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fili,<br />
Wow, I could hardly believe that you’ve written so much on this Israel-Taiwan and Taiwan-China issue!!! You’re always handling such sensitive issue with great care and seldom give out your own opinions. Hehe.</p>
<p>Anyway, I tend to view the Israel-Arab issue completely different from the China-Taiwan issue. Fundamentally, Taiwanese and Chinese are ethnically the same. China’s getting Taiwan back movement should be viewed as a sign of reunion, getting the blood back to the family, at least this is what the Chinese think. Annihilation is never what we’re intended. We love, we care our blood, but only basing on the fact they wouldn’t deny their identity and admit their origin. </p>
<p>But I believe what the Arabic alliance do to Israel isn’t out of reunion or love. The hate from your neighbors wont change a bit even though Israelis claim themselves as Arabic(just as an example, I know it wont happen, hehe). </p>
<p>On the contrary, the emotional stroke that Chinese get from Taiwan’s separating movement is far beyond foreigners could ever imagine. Maybe this comparison isn’t very appropriate to you, but trust me, most Chinese view Taiwan as the child of the country, just as HK and Macau, is the blood. Even an ordinary mother would be hurt badly and get raged when her kid trying to deny his origin, then you can imagine how a country would feel, especially when it bears the pride and hope of 1.33bn citizens. </p>
<p>Chinese feeling towards Taiwanese is really complicated. You cannot just say Chinese “anti” Taiwanese or try to annihilate Taiwan once it declares separation. If anything, Chinese are emotionally connected to Taiwan and hoping more than anyone to handle this issue peacefully. But can it really work out in a way satisfying people from both sides, or rather, the world? No one knows. </p>
<p>I’m an anti-war person, so a war between China and Taiwan is the last thing I wish to see. In fact I believe there won’t be such war in the future. When China could easily destroy a region by cutting the trading between two areas, why bothers to wage a war?</p>
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		<title>By: Inst</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-26054</link>
		<dc:creator>Inst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-26054</guid>
		<description>The Israeli problem scares me; there's a heterodoxy of views and a high quantity of passion. It sort of reminds me of reading Daisann's Hong Kong blog, where there's an entry where she mentions off-handedly that she's considering boycotting her favorite store because it supports the pro-Beijing DAB.

But for the legitimacy of a newly developed identity, what I recall having read is that many Chinese are anti-Taiwanese identity, mainly because the Taiwanese separatist faction is anti-Chinese and does not refrain from spewing anti-Chinese venom.

There's regional identity all over China, Shanghainese, Guangdongnese, Fujianese, Anhuiren, Beijingers, but up to the present day, almost no major Chinese group has decided to split off from the civilization. And that's the real problem with hardline TI advocates; they've decided to reject Chineseness, and not only that, they assign all of the negative traits of their culture to Chineseness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Israeli problem scares me; there&#8217;s a heterodoxy of views and a high quantity of passion. It sort of reminds me of reading Daisann&#8217;s Hong Kong blog, where there&#8217;s an entry where she mentions off-handedly that she&#8217;s considering boycotting her favorite store because it supports the pro-Beijing DAB.</p>
<p>But for the legitimacy of a newly developed identity, what I recall having read is that many Chinese are anti-Taiwanese identity, mainly because the Taiwanese separatist faction is anti-Chinese and does not refrain from spewing anti-Chinese venom.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s regional identity all over China, Shanghainese, Guangdongnese, Fujianese, Anhuiren, Beijingers, but up to the present day, almost no major Chinese group has decided to split off from the civilization. And that&#8217;s the real problem with hardline TI advocates; they&#8217;ve decided to reject Chineseness, and not only that, they assign all of the negative traits of their culture to Chineseness.</p>
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		<title>By: fiLi</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25698</link>
		<dc:creator>fiLi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25698</guid>
		<description>That's interesting, because there are some similarities to Israel and Palestine. Israeli identity is a relatively new construct, maybe previously based on groups of Jews who were separated from one another for ~2000 years, coming together from different countries and different cultures.

Palestinians face similar issues, combining two parts of land with different people not previously identified with one another - one previously part of Egypt, the other previously Jordan...

Which is to say that a newly constructed identity is as valid as an old one, especially if the people are practicing it de-facto and genuinely feel as a separate group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting, because there are some similarities to Israel and Palestine. Israeli identity is a relatively new construct, maybe previously based on groups of Jews who were separated from one another for ~2000 years, coming together from different countries and different cultures.</p>
<p>Palestinians face similar issues, combining two parts of land with different people not previously identified with one another - one previously part of Egypt, the other previously Jordan&#8230;</p>
<p>Which is to say that a newly constructed identity is as valid as an old one, especially if the people are practicing it de-facto and genuinely feel as a separate group.</p>
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		<title>By: Inst</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25685</link>
		<dc:creator>Inst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25685</guid>
		<description>Boss, got any recommendations? I've never heard any well-elucidated pan-blue perspectives, and while Roland Soong is quite intelligent and well-cultured, he's not a opinion-swayer. I'd imagine that the pan-green perspective is closer to that of a modern Western leftist, but I'm opposed to the pan-green perspective: Taiwanese identity is a very recent construct, and is most likely a political fabrication. Hoklo is still very close to Hokkien, the Taiwanese are still ethnic Chinese.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boss, got any recommendations? I&#8217;ve never heard any well-elucidated pan-blue perspectives, and while Roland Soong is quite intelligent and well-cultured, he&#8217;s not a opinion-swayer. I&#8217;d imagine that the pan-green perspective is closer to that of a modern Western leftist, but I&#8217;m opposed to the pan-green perspective: Taiwanese identity is a very recent construct, and is most likely a political fabrication. Hoklo is still very close to Hokkien, the Taiwanese are still ethnic Chinese.</p>
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		<title>By: fiLi</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25564</link>
		<dc:creator>fiLi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25564</guid>
		<description>I think there are quite a few, but I imagine it's easier to find them among those who do business, especially cross-strait. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are quite a few, but I imagine it&#8217;s easier to find them among those who do business, especially cross-strait. <img src='http://www.filination.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Inst</title>
		<link>http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25479</link>
		<dc:creator>Inst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 18:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.filination.com/blog/2007/11/30/our-moral-nakedness-taiwan-china-israel-palestine-and-the-un/#comment-25479</guid>
		<description>I'm curious; they say an adopted Englishman is more English than a real Englishman, so it seems that there are a lot of pan-Green Westerners in Taiwan. Are there ever any pan-Blue Westerners?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious; they say an adopted Englishman is more English than a real Englishman, so it seems that there are a lot of pan-Green Westerners in Taiwan. Are there ever any pan-Blue Westerners?</p>
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